[Billiardbills]

Can someone make a "sticky" or pinned post at the top regarding "The Final Rule" about Ivory?

I'm getting a lot of calls and messages regarding it and I'm sure it would help others sell legally here on AZBilliards. ***I am not a lawyer so please take the time to read the link yourself***

From what I and a few others have taken from the documentation not a whole lot changes IF the cue was made before 7/7/16. THIS IS ONLY IF NOT SELLING/SHIPPING TO CA WA NJ NY. Ivory can't be sold and or shipped to and from those states or even within those 4 states if I read it all correctly.

If made after 7/6/16 it's technically illegal to ship or sell to anyone other than a resident of your state IF NOT IN CA WA NJ NY.

There's a few other considerations like the item can not be more than 200 grams of Ivory (7 some ounces) and the ivory's value can't be more than 50% of the item sold. So it can't be a large piece of Ivory with a booger on it for sale. An Ivory handle cue is most likely going to be cored and even if it had an Ivory butt cap and joint I'm not sure it would be that much Ivory by weight.


ADDED NOTE: I believe Hawaii has been added to the list of not to sell within or to with items containing ivory. 1/23/2017


Below is the link in PDF from the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service regarding "The Final Rule".

https://www.fws.gov/international/pd...final-rule.pdf


Thank you,

Bill Lister
Cell/text- 239.823.0408
PayPal- Billiardbills@gmail.com
www.billiardbills.com
www.facebook.com/billiardbills

[PhilosopherKing]

In the immortal words of Jiminy Cricket: "Always let your conscience be your guide."

[jmonche]

I am curious as to how individual states can enact laws dictating what's legal and illegal with what the post office (a federal agency, no less) transports and to where it delivers.

[Billiardbills]

Originally Posted by jmonche

I am curious as to how individual states can enact laws dictating what's legal and illegal with what the post office (a federal agency, no less) transports and to where it delivers.

Well the state of California has a large group lawsuits regarding it already in the works from another market of Ivory collectors or something like that.


Thank you,

Bill Lister
Cell/text- 239.823.0408
PayPal- Billiardbills@gmail.com
www.billiardbills.com
www.facebook.com/billiardbills

[brokenarrowjbe]

US Fish and Wildlife guidelines are here

https://www.fws.gov/international/tr...d-answers.html

Good Luck, John

[jmonche]

Originally Posted by Billiardbills

Well the state of California has a large group lawsuits regarding it already in the works from another market of Ivory collectors or something like that.


Thank you,

Bill Lister
Cell/text- 239.823.0408
PayPal- Billiardbills@gmail.com
www.billiardbills.com
www.facebook.com/billiardbills

Not sure you understand my earlier point so here's an example.......I live in South Carolina and I send a cue loaded with Ivory (ivory points, Ivory handle, Ivory buttcap, etc) to California via the United States Postal Service. The cue is in the USPS system from when it leaves my hand until it reaches the recipient, who, say, lives in San Francisco. So where does the State of California intervene, when it arrives at the door in S.F., when the flight lands carrying my cue?...but a better question is what jurisdiction does it have to intercept my shipment when it is in the hands of a federal agency such as the post office......it seems to me that this whole Ivory mess will get hung up in a court somewhere because there are so many jurisdictioinal borders being circumvented with these cherry-picking edicts.

[Billiardbills]

Originally Posted by jmonche

Not sure you understand my earlier point so here's an example.......I live in South Carolina and I send a cue loaded with Ivory (ivory points, Ivory handle, Ivory buttcap, etc) to California via the United States Postal Service. The cue is in the USPS system from when it leaves my hand until it reaches the recipient, who, say, lives in San Francisco. So where does the State of California intervene, when it arrives at the door in S.F., when the flight lands carrying my cue?...but a better question is what jurisdiction does it have to intercept my shipment when it is in the hands of a federal agency such as the post office......it seems to me that this whole Ivory mess will get hung up in a court somewhere because there are so many jurisdictioinal borders being circumvented with these cherry-picking edicts.

From what I understand, the issue would be the additional bans that California, Wasington, New York and New Jersey have added is what will make it messy in the case you stated. I'm looking now for that info.

It can not be more than 200 grams or a little more than 7 ounces. It also can not be more than 50% of the value of the item. That would mean if some unknown cuemaker made a cue like you said the value could be an issue but if it were a high end cuemaker the value of the cue would be greater than just the cost of the tooled Ivory.


Thank you,

Bill Lister
Cell/text- 239.823.0408
PayPal- Billiardbills@gmail.com
www.billiardbills.com
www.facebook.com/billiardbills

[Bavafongoul]

If you want to know what's happening with CA Fish & Wildlife, drop me a line.

I have spoken with the Head of Enforcement last month at great length about my
cues and ordering a pool cue that would have used ivory.

Bottom-line.......NO......you cannot build, repair or sell any pool cue to anyone in CA
regardless of whether the seller was an individual in a different state or a cue-maker.

Cues cannot be sold......repairs cannot be made......not even replacing a ivory ferrule.
There are no exceptions at present and some CA cue-makers are just begging to get
busted for breaking the law........it is going to happen.

If you have a cue underway and live in CA or the cue-maker you are using lives in CA,
you have a big problem potentially. When CA Fish & Wildlife conducts an inspection, it
is not just physical inventory they examine, i.e., cues underway. They can examine all
business records for purchasing raw materials, such as ivory and also customer sales
records......if there's any cues shipped to CA after June 30th that contain any ivory, the cue
could be confiscated & charges can be brought against the cue-maker & even cue-owner.

I am not saying when this would start to happen but I know Fish & Wildlife understands that
CA cue-makers have been a prime consumer/user of processed ivory.....I predict there's going
to be some cue-makers busted this year for violating the CA ivory ban.

[Billiardbills]

Originally Posted by Bavafongoul

If you want to know what's happening with CA Fish & Wildlife, drop me a line.

I have spoken with the Head of Enforcement last month at great length about my
cues and ordering a pool cue that would have used ivory.

Bottom-line.......NO......you cannot build, repair or sell any pool cue to anyone in CA
regardless of whether the seller was an individual in a different state or a cue-maker.

Cues cannot be sold......repairs cannot be made......not even replacing a ivory ferrule.
There are no exceptions at present and some CA cue-makers are just begging to get
busted for breaking the law........it is going to happen.

If you have a cue underway and live in CA or the cue-maker you are using lives in CA,
you have a big problem potentially. When CA Fish & Wildlife conducts an inspection, it
is not just physical inventory they examine, i.e., cues underway. They can examine all
business records for purchasing raw materials, such as ivory and also customer sales
records......if there's any cues shipped to CA after June 30th that contain any ivory, the cue
could be confiscated & charges can be brought against the cue-maker & even cue-owner.

I am not saying when this would start to happen but I know Fish & Wildlife understands that
CA cue-makers have been a prime consumer/user of processed ivory.....I predict there's going
to be some cue-makers busted this year for violating the CA ivory ban.

Not good at all for them. I would think they should get with it ASAP. I'd think if they do it, it'll be an example of someone unfortunately for everyone to see.


Thank you,

Bill Lister
Cell/text- 239.823.0408
PayPal- Billiardbills@gmail.com
www.billiardbills.com
www.facebook.com/billiardbills

[cueaddicts]

Nice post, Bill. This will be a moving target as progressive groups in other states look at adding new restrictions.

[nick serdula]

Who's next?
Nick

[Bamacues]

Originally Posted by brokenarrowjbe

US Fish and Wildlife guidelines are here

https://www.fws.gov/international/tr...d-answers.html

Good Luck, John

Please note the "de minimus" exemption. Many people are saying that 200 grams (7oz) is ok. The exemption states that the requirement is that the item in question meet either i or ii, and ALL of iii-vii. The weight alone will not be enough to meet the requirement....and you must also prove that it is African elephant ivory.

What is the de minimis exemption?

The de minimis exemption applies only to items made from African elephant ivory. The African elephant 4(d) rule provides an exemption from prohibitions on selling or offering for sale in interstate and foreign commerce for certain manufactured or handcrafted items that contain a small (de minimis) amount of African elephant ivory.

To qualify for the de minimis exception, manufactured or handcrafted items must meet either (i) or (ii) and all of the criteria (iii) – (vii):

(i) If the item is located within the United States, the ivory was imported into the United States prior to January 18, 1990, or was imported into the United States under a Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species of Wild Fauna and Flora (CITES) pre-Convention certificate with no limitation on its commercial use;
(ii) If the item is located outside the United States, the ivory was removed from the wild prior to February 26, 1976;
(iii) The ivory is a fixed or integral component or components of a larger manufactured or handcrafted item and is not in its current form the primary source of the value of the item, that is, the ivory does not account for more than 50 % of the value of the item;
(iv) The ivory is not raw;
(v) The manufactured or handcrafted item is not made wholly or primarily of ivory, that is, the ivory component or components do not account for more than 50 % of the item by volume;
(vi) The total weight of the ivory component or components is less than 200 grams; and
(vii) The item was manufactured or handcrafted before July 6, 2016.

What types of ivory items are likely to qualify for the de minimis exemption?
Only African elephant ivory items may qualify for the de minimis exemption. This exemption is not available for Asian elephant ivory. When we proposed the 200-gram limit we had a particular suite of items in mind. The following types of items may qualify for the de minimis exception: many musical instruments (including many keyboard instruments, with ivory keys, most stringed instruments and bows with ivory parts or decorations, and many bagpipes, bassoons and other wind instruments with ivory trim); most knives and guns with ivory grips; and certain household and decorative items (including teapots with ivory insulators, measuring tools with ivory parts or trim, baskets with ivory trim, walking sticks and canes with ivory decorations, and many furniture pieces with ivory inlay, etc.). However, to qualify for the de minimis exception, all of the above criteria must be met (either (i) or (ii) and (iii)-(vii)). To view examples of items that may meet de minimis criteria, click here.

What types of ivory items are not likely to qualify for the de minimis exemption?

Asian elephant ivory items do not qualify for the de minimis exemption. This exemption is not available for Asian elephant ivory. Examples of African elephant ivory items that we do not expect would qualify for the de minimis exemption include chess sets with ivory chess pieces (both because we would not consider the pieces to be fixed or integral components of a larger manufactured item and because the ivory would likely be the primary source of value of the chess set), an ivory carving on a wooden base (both because it would likely be primarily made of ivory and the ivory would likely be the primary source of its value), and ivory earrings or a pendant with metal fittings (again both because they would likely be primarily made of ivory and the ivory would likely be the primary source of its value).

How do I demonstrate that my ivory item meets the criteria to qualify for the de minimis exemption?

To qualify for the de minimis exemption, an item must be made of African elephant ivory and must meet the criteria provided above. We consider an item to be made wholly or primarily of ivory if the ivory component or components account for more than 50 percent of the item by volume. Likewise, if more than 50 percent of the value of an item is attributed to the ivory component or components we consider the ivory to be the primary source of the value of that item. Value can be ascertained by comparing a similar item that does not contain ivory to one that does (for example, comparing the price of a basket with ivory trim/decoration to the price of a similar basket without ivory components). Though not required, a qualified appraisal or another method of documenting the value of the item and the relative value of the ivory component, including, information in catalogs, price lists, and other similar materials, can also be used. We will not require ivory components to be removed from an item to be weighed

[Billiardbills]

http://www.mercurynews.com/ci_301830...elephant-ivory

Not good. Not good at all. I think they will make an example out of someone in each industry and have been saying it for a while now.


Thank you,

Bill Lister
Cell/text- 239.823.0408
PayPal- Billiardbills@gmail.com
www.billiardbills.com
www.facebook.com/billiardbills

[asiasdad]

Sure are a lot of ivory laden cues for sale all of a sudden

[Bavafongoul]

California is thinking about instituting a Ivory Tipster Hotline.
If someone is engaged in buying, selling, or processing ivory
or cues with ivory, a 800 Tipster line is being considered.

That would mean if you spot someone selling a cue that has
ivory, your can report the seller, or buyer, to CA Fish & Wildlife
for investigation of a ivory ban violation. The merits of a bounty
incentive is being debated on how the person reporting the
offense could get compensated since this would become a
incentive to report violators.

If you live in California, do not advertise you have a cue for sale
when there's any ivory in the cue. Someone could spot your
sale thread and turn you in because you can't sell your cue while
you reside in CA......the law is being challenged in the courts but
for now, No Cue Sales even if the cue has even a gram of ivory.