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Originally Posted by book collector

If chess masters take years to develop their strategies how do you explain these guys
Sergey Karjakin
Gukesh Dommaraju
Javokhir Sindarov
Praggnanandhaa Rameshbabu
Nodirbek Abdusattorov
Parimarjan Negi
Magnus Carlsen
Wei Yi
Raunak Sadhwani
Bu Xiangzhi
none over 13 years old , there is a 4 year old who played Karpov and actually was playing a great game despite it being a blitz game which tremendously helped Karpov and the announcer kept distracting the little kid asking him stupid questions. He lost on time duh.
Chess has been opening theory for the last 100 plus years . Endless memorization of opening lines, and then well worn tactics the rest of the game.
Until super computers, most of it was all well known, and well documented.
Now the top players incorporate the computer moves sometimes in their games , just more memorization. {Most of the computer moves are counter intuitive to popular chess theory , that is why they were never developed by humans }
It is not a mysterious ability to continually invent new ideas. Just having a near photographic memory for opening sequences and tactics and the ability to see the favorable "positions' developing, faster than your opponent.
As far as I know there was only one notable exception in the last century , that was Jose Raul Capablanca, he played the game mostly by intuition. He claimed he did not study opening theory at all , but thats kind of hard to believe , even if he only used it as a weapon against the people who did stick to it.
He was 4 years old and had never seen a chess board when he watched his father, a lieutenant in the army and another soldier play 2 games and when they were finished , he challenged his father to a game , after the child beat him 2 games in a row, the father took him to a brain specialist.
Bobby Fischer although a great theoretician, actually played a lot like Capa, he saw positions most others did not see, or if they did , he was already there ahead of them with a trap.

Wow, I didn't know these moves could be memorized by children. It is almost beyond the imagination that the millions of potential scenarios can be memorized. This is why some people are exceptional beyond what we think of as usual human limits.

[MattPoland]

Originally Posted by Tin Man

No one said 'secret' knowledge. I'm not saying it's anything that hasn't been discovered.

I’m quoting you out of context. But the OP seemed to clearly be talking about ‘secret’ knowledge with framing the conversation in terms of how it was passed from father to son, hoarded, and taken to the grave.

I think that perhaps contrasts with the idea of specialized knowledge solely earned through quality practice, competition, coming with it, instruction and research. Then again, yesterday’s secrets sometimes become today’s instruction, e.g. spot on the wall.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[Tin Man]

Originally Posted by MattPoland

I’m quoting you out of context. But the OP seemed to clearly be talking about ‘secret’ knowledge with framing the conversation in terms of how it was passed from father to son, hoarded, and taken to the grave.

I think that perhaps contrasts with the idea of specialized knowledge solely earned through quality practice, competition, coming with it, instruction and research. Then again, yesterday’s secrets sometimes become today’s instruction, e.g. spot on the wall.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Good point! I stand corrected!

I guess the word secret is a strange one. Secret to who? I mean, in order for it to be knowledge it has to be known by someone, making it no longer secret from at least them. It's almost an oxymoron.

So I took it to mean "knowledge the majority of pool players aren't armed with". My point is that this knowledge isn't being kept away in a vault somewhere, spoken about only by great players that change the subject when a civilian enters the room. It's simply knowledge that is overlooked by the majority.

I know there is a lot I don't know about this game. I also know I haven't met anyone that I couldn't show a few things, big or small.

[Bob Jewett]

Originally Posted by Straightpool_99

... The problem with pool is that you can often shoot your way out of a bad situation with pure talent/luck, and never learn the actual correct way of shooting. Since the form of the player fluctuates, he may never understand that he simply shoots the wrong shots and instead believe he's in a slump when maybe he isn't. ...

As Maurice Daly put it 107 years ago, the worst thing that can happen for a player is to shoot the wrong shot and have it turn out well.

[lfigueroa]

I think I did intend to imply secrecy using the term "deep knowledge."

Meaning, knowledge that the vast majority of players do not possess regardless of how long they've played and how many instructional books, DVDs, and YouTubes they've watched. Take Wille Mosconi as an example. Yes, he was a prodigy, a savant. But in learning the game so early in his development did he see and learn connections, patterns, and techniques that others miss? Was it just that he "did things better" that allowed him to run so many balls and win so many championships?

Or did he know stuff?

I've been fortunate in that I've had the opportunity to take lessons from Steve "The Cookie Monster" Cook, Dallas West, and Ray Martin. And one of the things I like to do when I'm with guys like that is to ask them about various 14.1 break shots. They often surprise me.

I mean, though I'm no champion, I've been playing the game for decades and have run 100 a few times. Yet they surprise me with what I would call deep knowledge about going into the stack, as well as other things. During one lesson I asked RM how he'd shoot a particular break shot and he said something like, "Follow with some inside." So then I set up another shot, nominally different, and ask the same question. And he says, "Follow." And I'm like, "Really?" And Ray says, "Go ahead and shoot it." And I do -- with just follow -- and the balls open up and the CB is near the center of the table. Who knew -- I certainly didn't.

When guys say there's no such thing as deep knowledge it kinda makes me think they believe they know the best way to shoot every shot, or at an even more basic level, what shot to shoot at any given point in a pattern. I don't know about you but unless they're a champion, I don't believe that to be so.

Lou Figueroa

[Icon of Sin]

I feel like every skill based "thing" has something that just can't be taught. The person needs to discover it on their own. Pool is no different... there is a point in pool where things just "click", but you need to make the "click" happen... the lifetime Skill Level 3 League Player will never experience that as pool is an excuse to go hang out with friends/drink and have some friendly competition...

The players that want to get better, want their skill level to go up, want to snap off tournaments, want to beat people in action... they are the ones that the "click" happens for... they are the ones that will not only play pool, but be actual pool players.

[bbb]

Originally Posted by Icon of Sin

.. they are the ones that will not only play pool, but be actual pool players.

Great distinction

[CJ Wiley]

Originally Posted by Icon of Sin

I feel like every skill based "thing" has something that just can't be taught. The person needs to discover it on their own. Pool is no different... there is a point in pool where things just "click", but you need to make the "click" happen... the lifetime Skill Level 3 League Player will never experience that as pool is an excuse to go hang out with friends/drink and have some friendly competition...

The players that want to get better, want their skill level to go up, want to snap off tournaments, want to beat people in action... they are the ones that the "click" happens for... they are the ones that will not only play pool, but be actual pool players.

Good points, I of S - it is a "click" that's a great way to describe it!

The game of pool is geometrically perfect, this means we don't have to search for the perfection because it's already there.

To play at the highest level possible we are willing to "plug in" and deeply connect to the game both mentally and physically.

To achieve this we are willing to perform thousands of scientific experiments on (and off) the table until something "Clicks"....the human mind has an uncanny ability to understand the deepest levels of physics and geometry, you'll see examples of this in architecture like the pyramids and in every challenging sport or game.

We should seek to discover ourselves through the game, express ourselves in such a way a time comes when we graduate from us playing the game, to the game playing through us. However, since the human body isn't designed to play pocket billiards there are techniques that must be learned, and they are usually opposite of "common opinion".


The Game is the Teacher

[j2pac]

Originally Posted by CJ Wiley

Good points, I of S - it is a "click" that's a great way to describe it!

The game of pool is geometrically perfect, this means we don't have to search for the perfection because it's already there.

To play at the highest level possible we are willing to "plug in" and deeply connect to the game both mentally and physically.

To achieve this we are willing to perform thousands of scientific experiments on (and off) the table until something "Clicks"....the human mind has an uncanny ability to understand the deepest levels of physics and geometry, you'll see examples of this in architecture like the pyramids and in every challenging sport or game.

We should seek to discover ourselves through the game, express ourselves in such a way a time comes when we graduate from us playing the game, to the game playing through us. However, since the human body isn't designed to play pocket billiards there are techniques that must be learned, and they are usually opposite of "common opinion".


The Game is the Teacher

Amen CJ.
When once asked who his greatest teacher was? Lee Trevino aptly replied, "my golf ball."

[CJ Wiley]

Originally Posted by j2pac

Amen CJ.
When once asked who his greatest teacher was? Lee Trevino aptly replied, "my golf ball."

That's right, the old time road players use to tell me "whitey never lies".

Omaha John used to tell me "you have to make the cueball "float" to the next position and others would say "he has it on a string". It took me awhile to understand what they meant, but I kept watching the players and the after-contact-reaction of the cueball was the giveaway that they were at that advanced level.

I ask Efren what he thought made him a winning player and he said "no spin"....most players would think he meant he didn't spin the cue ball, but that wasn't true, he meant AFTER contact.....he floated the cueball, and yes, he has it "on a string".

The Game is the Teacher

[j2pac]

Originally Posted by CJ Wiley

That's right, the old time road players use to tell me "whitey never lies".

Omaha John used to tell me "you have to make the cueball "float" to the next position and others would say "he has it on a string". It took me awhile to understand what they meant, but I kept watching the players and the after-contact-reaction of the cueball was the giveaway that they were at that advanced level.

I ask Efren what he thought made him a winning player and he said "no spin"....most players would think he meant he didn't spin the cue ball, but that wasn't true, he meant AFTER contact.....he floated the cueball, and yes, he has it "on a string".

The Game is the Teacher

Please don't ever stop writing. It's nice to read the history, stories, and lessons of the game, from folks who actually lived it. You, and Mr. Jay Helfert always allow me to live vicariously through the two of you...minus the near death experiences. As far as I am concerned, the two of you are invaluable to the sport, and it's many intricacies.
My sincere thanks for your continued contributions.

One last funny Trevino quip, for the road. Lee was asked once, why he never had a swing coach? He said, "I never found one who could beat me."

[CocoboloCowboy]

I do not know if this is Deep Knowledge, but years ago a good pool player, who is short stop speed. Told me visualize your short before you shoot.

What he meant was figure out where you want the OB to go. In pocket, or safety position.

Where you want the CB to be at end of shot with in an area the size of a Silver Dollar.

Last figure out how to accomplish the two point above, and accomplish that on every shot you take.

Sound easy, is not easy, if it was or is I would be a world class PoolPlayer.

[wahcheck]

I guess many people have wondered (myself included) if there were "secrets" in playing pool that only some top level players knew but would never tell....I believe there are, but maybe nothing so profound as to suddenly make you into a great player. I took a lesson from a pro once, and he showed me a couple of things he learned that would never be found in a book of pool lessons, and like someone already said, it had to have come from human imagination, which I think is pretty much limitless. It reminds me of the time long ago when most pros or top players had the attitude that they would never teach you something for free that cost them to learn.

And since there are Lee Trevino stories being told, my favorite one is:

Once, someone was passing by Trevino's house where he was out mowing his lawn, and making the wrong assumption that he was a gardener doing it for the owner of the house, asked what he was getting paid to do the mowing; Trevino answered, "The lady of the house lets me sleep with her."

[dr_dave]

For those interested, the link below provides a list of 100 categorized "secrets" (with supporting resources) that most top players either "know" or have a "feel" for. Depending on your level of pool knowledge, experience, and ability, some of this stuff might be considered "deep knowledge:"

Top 100 Tips, Tricks, Secrets, and Gems

Enjoy,
Dave

[CocoboloCowboy]

Originally Posted by dr_dave

For those interested, the link below provides a list of 100 categorized "secrets" (with supporting resources) that most top players either "know" or have a "feel" for. Depending on your level of pool knowledge, experience, and ability, some of this stuff might be considered "deep knowledge:"

Top 100 Tips, Tricks, Secrets, and Gems

Enjoy,
Dave

Dr. Dave's info is great, worth checking out, and it will not cost you a thing but a little time.