[Seaspook]

Today, I shot a legal object ball into another ball that was frozen to the rail. No other ball or cue ball touched any other rail. I say clean shot because the frozen ball was an extension of the rail.

Opponent called foul and wanted Ball in Hand.

What is the correct call??

Thanks
Alan

[gregcantrall]

Foul, ball in hand.
A frozen ball is not considered part of the rail.

[hang-the-9]

Originally Posted by Seaspook

Today, I shot a legal object ball into another ball that was frozen to the rail. No other ball or cue ball touched any other rail. I say clean shot because the frozen ball was an extension of the rail.

Opponent called foul and wanted Ball in Hand.

What is the correct call??

Thanks
Alan

If a ball is frozen to a rail, either the cueball has to hit that rail or another rail, another ball has to hit any rail or the frozen ball has to hit a rail not the one it's frozen to. So if you hit the ball, it bounces out then double-kisses off the cueball back to same rail, that is not a good hit.

That is in pretty much every rule book, there are no "extension" to a rail. Someone asked if the fuzz on the rail was considered the "rail". It's not. Neither is a ball hanging in a pocket if it did not touch the rail going in, so if you shoot and hang up a ball without either cueball or ball touching a rail, it's a foul.

[cecain7]

I recall at one time in my previous life....making a legal shot on a ball frozen to a rail required pocketing the ball, sending it to another rail, or sending the cue ball to another rail. In short, the rail that the frozen ball was touching did not count in driving it or the cue to a rail.

Have things changed??? I ask only because I've taken up playing on a league and everyone except me is a rule expert at the table.

HELP!!

Cain

[garczar]

Originally Posted by hang-the-9

If a ball is frozen to a rail, either the cueball has to hit that rail or another rail, another ball has to hit any rail or the frozen ball has to hit a rail not the one it's frozen to. So if you hit the ball, it bounces out then double-kisses off the cueball back to same rail, that is not a good hit.

That is in pretty much every rule book, there are no "extension" to a rail. Someone asked if the fuzz on the rail was considered the "rail". It's not. Neither is a ball hanging in a pocket if it did not touch the rail going in, so if you shoot and hang up a ball without either cueball or ball touching a rail, it's a foul.

You sure about the "kiss back"? I thought once a frozen ball has left the rail its basically back-in-play and any rail hit is then legal. Yes/no??

[Bob Jewett]

I suppose I should start monitoring this group since I have some interest in the rules....

After the cue ball contacts an object ball, some ball must make rail contact. Rail contact is defined as a ball that is not touching a rail and later touches a rail.

A ball that is frozen to the rail and is simply driven into that rail does not make contact with the rail.

If a ball is frozen to the rail, and a ball hits it straight into the rail, some argue that maybe the frozen object ball rebounds back into the ball that and then goes back to the rail, so that it left the rail and returned. High speed video shows that this does not happen. The object ball is still in the rail when it contacts the cue ball the second time.

And to be complete, I'll point out a corner case. It is unlikely that anyone here will ever see this shot, but it is possible. With a soft, close masse on a frozen ball, it is possible to get the object ball to double kiss, move a little off the rail and then have the cue ball reverse direction with the masse and knock the object ball back to the rail. If you plan to play such a shot, you better explain what you're going to do to the ref before you shoot.

Some rule sets go on to cover details if the frozen ball leaves the cushion and returns to the same cushion for the cushion contact. The WPA rules allow such a return and do not specify a cause. The CSI/BCAPL rules state that the ball must strike an object ball before it returns to the same rail. That would disallow the masse shot in the previous paragraph. If a ball that was frozen is moving nearly parallel to the rail and rolls back to the cushion (unlevel table or rail groove) the WPA rules allow such a contact to count but the BCAPL does not.

If a ball is frozen to the point of a side pocket and it is driven off that point to the other point, some rules sets do not give credit for the rail contact because it is the same rail. The BCAPL does give credit because it talks about cushions and there are six cushions -- two along each side rail.

[garczar]

Originally Posted by Bob Jewett

I suppose I should start monitoring this group since I have some interest in the rules....

After the cue ball contacts an object ball, some ball must make rail contact. Rail contact is defined as a ball that is not touching a rail and later touches a rail.

A ball that is frozen to the rail and is simply driven into that rail does not make contact with the rail.

If a ball is frozen to the rail, and a ball hits it straight into the rail, some argue that maybe the frozen object ball rebounds back into the ball that and then goes back to the rail, so that it left the rail and returned. High speed video shows that this does not happen. The object ball is still in the rail when it contacts the cue ball the second time.

And to be complete, I'll point out a corner case. It is unlikely that anyone here will ever see this shot, but it is possible. With a soft, close masse on a frozen ball, it is possible to get the object ball to double kiss, move a little off the rail and then have the cue ball reverse direction with the masse and knock the object ball back to the rail. If you plan to play such a shot, you better explain what you're going to do to the ref before you shoot.

Some rule sets go on to cover details if the frozen ball leaves the cushion and returns to the same cushion for the cushion contact. The WPA rules allow such a return and do not specify a cause. The CSI/BCAPL rules state that the ball must strike an object ball before it returns to the same rail. That would disallow the masse shot in the previous paragraph. If a ball that was frozen is moving nearly parallel to the rail and rolls back to the cushion (unlevel table or rail groove) the WPA rules allow such a contact to count but the BCAPL does not.

If a ball is frozen to the point of a side pocket and it is driven off that point to the other point, some rules sets do not give credit for the rail contact because it is the same rail. The BCAPL does give credit because it talks about cushions and there are six cushions -- two along each side rail.

Thanx Bob.

[Rickhem]

Originally Posted by Bob Jewett

If a ball is frozen to the point of a side pocket and it is driven off that point to the other point, some rules sets do not give credit for the rail contact because it is the same rail. The BCAPL does give credit because it talks about cushions and there are six cushions -- two along each side rail.

This is an epiphany for me. I always thought rails and cushions were the same. Never gave a thought to it beyond that, and I always wondered why the ends were called the "short rails" when they seemed pretty close in length to me.
Now I know!
Thanks Bob.

[hang-the-9]

Originally Posted by garczar

You sure about the "kiss back"? I thought once a frozen ball has left the rail its basically back-in-play and any rail hit is then legal. Yes/no??

Yes, you can't have that ball go back to the rail for contact. It has to contact another rail if that is the only ball that hits a rail.

Edit: I see Bob posted that it is a good hit if the ball leaves the rail and comes back, I don't remember that at all, I always thought that if a ball is frozen to the rail, that ball has to contact another rail for the hit to be good. That is what I also have heard in tournament rules when people ask about it, although to be honest some of those times the answer came from me LOL, but at least no-one argued that rule when I used it.

The rule where the ball has to contact another ball before going to that same rail seems right so that would make this legal, green object ball leaves rail, caroms into black second ball and back to rail, for a good hit.