Starrett 12" level: How level is level?

Cuebacca · **Starrett 12" level: How level is level? -** 10-24-2006, 12:01 AM

I'm in the process of assembling my table. This is only the second time I've assembled a table, and its the first time I've had access to a level. The first table I leveled, I rolled balls over and over, and amazingly, with patience, it turned out really well. LOL.

Anyway, my question is, for those who use a Starrett 12" level, how level do you make the slate before you're satisfied? I'm wondering if the bubble needs to be dead nut center to keep the balls from rolling off. What kind of tolerance do you allow? Will a ball roll off at all if the bubble is within +/- 1 tick mark from center, for example?

I want to be sure there's absolutely no noticeable curve on the table, but I understand that there is some kind of tolerance to everything.

The cloth to be put on is worsted wool, by the way. Thanks in advance.

Cuebacca · 01:19 AM

Well, I think I may have answered my own question based on Starrett's and WPA's specifications. From Starrett's website, The main level vials have graduations that are approximately 80-90 seconds or .005" per foot.

From WPA's website, The playing surface must be capable of maintaining an overall flatness within + .020 inches lengthwise and + .010 inches across the width.

Well, I'll spare you the details of my little math assignment

, but I calculated that the bubble can be off by up to +/- 0.24 divisions and still be within WPA spec.

So I guess I do pretty much need to keep that bubble in the dead nut center within about +/- a quarter tick mark. Is that about right?

mnShooter · 10-24-2006, 07:55 AM

I would definitely shoot for the whole table being within 1 graduation. Getting it perfect is almost impossible on some tables where the slate isn't perfectly flat. Within 2 is supposed to be within BCA specs but you will notice some roll especially on faster cloth. Also the bubble will get bigger and smaller so one graduation won't always be on the line.

Cuebacca · 10-24-2006, 03:05 PM

Thanks for the advice, mnShooter. I've only done one of the three slates so far and its within +/- 1 graduation. In light of the calculations I did and the advice you gave, I'm going to go back and try harder and see what I can do.

Its a nice table and having close-to-perfect conditions means a lot to me, so it would be a shame to find that balls are drifting off line.

smittie1984 · 10-24-2006, 05:54 PM

I think it is 3 lines on a 12" level is suppose to be specs. And even with low quality tables you can get it dead level. The only problem is how long will a low quality table stay level.

We have a 12". I forget the actual specs. But if you place a $1 bill underneath 1 side it will raise it a line.

To make sure it is calibrated you need to flip one side to another.

If you are say 1 line off. Then flip it the other way and are dead on then your level is not accurate. You have to adjust it.

Cuebacca · 10-24-2006, 06:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smittie1984

I think it is 3 lines on a 12" level is suppose to be specs. And even with low quality tables you can get it dead level. The only problem is how long will a low quality table stay level.

We have a 12". I forget the actual specs. But if you place a $1 bill underneath 1 side it will raise it a line.

To make sure it is calibrated you need to flip one side to another.

If you are say 1 line off. Then flip it the other way and are dead on then your level is not accurate. You have to adjust it.

Hey Smittie, thanks for the reply. I got the level to where its calibrated real good.

So you're saying that I can have the bubble off of center by +/- 1.5 lines and I'll still probably be OK without any roll-off? If so, then I'm good so far with the one slate I've done out of three.

The table is a Gold Crown, so hopefully once I get it leveled it will stay put for a while. I feel like its a shame that I have to use shims, as it seems to make the large surface area of the frame go to waste. I guess after almost 40 years, even a Gold Crown can't withstand the power of gravity.

mechanic/player · 10-24-2006, 06:26 PM

I use two six in machinist's levels, I start with the middle piece and get that perfectly level, I put them in the center in a north/south east/west posistion. At that point I move them to the farthest end of the next slate I choose to do
, the edge of the slate that is against the middle piece I just wedge/shim it to match the middle piece and then again I get it perfect at the head or foot end of the slate, sometimes you cant always get it perfect but I always try to even if it means starting all over again, you can get it very close to perfect if time/paitience allows for it.

powderburner · 10-25-2006, 08:21 AM

I'm not a table mechanic but I use Starrett machinist levels to keep my table as level as possible. I think all of these levels claim about .005" per ft graduations, regardless of level lenght.

I have Simonis 860 cloth that isn't stretched as tight as it could be and find that I can't see any roll off if 1 division or less on the level. The catch is getting 1 div or less anywhere and any direction on the table, ain't easy to obtain or keep that close.

GregoryGrc · 10-25-2006, 10:08 AM

I've installed 5 or 6 tables using my Starrett 98-12. If you have allowed the slates to rest on the frame for 24 hours or so and are not installing the table on a spongy floor you should be able to get those slates level within 1 tick mark. You'll need to sample 4 to 6 positions on each slate to get an "average" since slates are only required to be within .010" flat. The Starrett 98-12 is way more accurate than that, and that is why I use the word "average". The tables I have installed on spongy floors come with a disclaimer from me before work commences that the job will be "as good as I can do it" given the environmental limitations. I leveled these with a quality carpenter's level because it is impossible to use the Starrett when it moves 2 ticks depending on which side you are standing! Oddly enough I have never had a complaint....

Hope this helps,

Greg

Cuebacca · 10-31-2006, 06:30 PM

Thanks for your help you guys. I am moving slowly on this project. I had to take the slate back off to repair some of the holes in the frame that had stripped. There were several sets of holes, with some screw holes overlapping each other. Nasty. Plugged them up with dowels and now I'll have the pleasure of putting screws into nice fresh holes.

I'm going to switch my slate-leveling technique from using shims to using cards instead. Seems like that will be more stable as the slate will have more surface area to rest on, but is probably more of a pain to do. I'll let you know how it turns out. Thanks again for your help, everyone.

smittie1984 · 10-31-2006, 08:31 PM

I've been a mechanic for 2 years. My first table with pins I cracked the slate. Luckily it wasn't too bad. And it wasn't simonis.

I cracked mine becuase I forgot all about them because I was rushing all day and got impatient about putting my table together. But lesson learned.

I've never liked the pins. They have enough play to wedge the slate up but God forbid someone jump up on your table and slip a seem. That would result in a chunk missing.

I do remember thinking about cutting them off but I didn't do it. I wish I did now.

Here is a picture of my little mistake. Now a lot of it was fairly worn around the seams because it belonged to a pool hall and you can tell from the backing it has been recovered a ton. So I'm not sure if it may have been cracked and just a matter of time. or if it is all my fault.

I'm guessing all my fault.

smittie1984 · 10-31-2006, 08:34 PM

If you have a Gold Crown then you should be able to make the table perfectly level. It should be dead on.

Also when you plane your slate. Check to see if you have pins connecting the slate. If you do it'd probably be best to call in a profesional. I actually busted part of the slate on my Gold Crown because I didn't pay attention. And it figures I'd do it to my table.

But you should be able to get that table perfectly level. Which is why people pay big money for what is essentially an ugly table. (When compared to nice furnitures)

Cuebacca · 10-31-2006, 09:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smittie1984

If you have a Gold Crown then you should be able to make the table perfectly level. It should be dead on.

Also when you plane your slate. Check to see if you have pins connecting the slate. If you do it'd probably be best to call in a profesional. I actually busted part of the slate on my Gold Crown because I didn't pay attention. And it figures I'd do it to my table.

But you should be able to get that table perfectly level. Which is why people pay big money for what is essentially an ugly table. (When compared to nice furnitures)

The slates are pinned, and unfortunately, a couple of them are missing from one of the previous owners' mishaps. I noticed that there is a little bit of play in how the pins fit in the ferrules. I'm guessing that if there wasn't that play, it wouldn't be practical to level the slates because you'd have to lift three slates by about the same amount at the exact same time.

On the other hand, given the fact that there is that play, it makes me wonder why the pins are considered such an asset on a table. It seems to me that they just get in the way, but maybe there's something I don't understand. Certainly they are a hazard at the least.

Anyhow, I will give it a shot myself, and will be extremely careful with everything. I've been putting in a lot of effort into learning so that I can do a good job. Of course, there's no substitute for experience. The cloth is probably where I will have the most trouble, but luckily the rails are already freshly clothed.

If it doesn't turn out well, I will start a hunt for a good mechanic to redo it. Unfortunately, my local poolhalls don't seem to take very good care of their tables, so I already feel like I'd do a better job than their mechanic(s) would. Also, since I don't own my own home, this will be a skill that will come in handy again in the future, so I feel good that I'm learning about my table.

I greatly appreciate the advice I've been given on this forum.

SlateHumper · 11-01-2006, 05:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuebacca

If it doesn't turn out well, I will start a hunt for a good mechanic to redo it. Unfortunately, my local poolhalls don't seem to take very good care of their tables, so I already feel like I'd do a better job than their mechanic(s) would. Also, since I don't own my own home, this will be a skill that will come in handy again in the future, so I feel good that I'm learning about my table.

I greatly appreciate the advice I've been given on this forum.

Fly me out to Cali and I'll do it for free!

Tablemechanic · **Starret Level -** 11-06-2006, 05:35 PM

Each line on your level should be .005 per 10". to be with in a line should be good. I use levels that are .0005 per line in 10" to get the slates right one the money. sometimes you have to do what you can because the slates are not flat. Always start with the highest spot and bring everything else up to it. As far as pins go, I wish all slates had them. The pins should be snug. Just mke sure when you move one slate at the seam, to move the slate next to it the same so you do not pop the pins. The slate on the Diamond Pros are pinned and machined flat on each side. They are very nice to work with. What has happend with old tables are that some of the slates are miss matched. Pool rooms shut down and they tear down the tables they do not keep the slates together, so they are mismatched.

Cuebacca, I will be at Hard Times Sacramento this weekend for the tournament. Let me know if you are going to be there or you live close to see if I can help you out.

Steve