[BilliardsAbout]

Originally Posted by Bob Jewett

A true pause where both the speed of the arm and the force from the hand go to zero at the same time is a very, very different physical situation from where the force from the hand goes to zero during the backstroke and is actually already pushing the cue forward when the cue comes to a rest.

I'm surprised by how many don't see those two situations as very different.

Yes--more visibly obvious in baseball or golf. Body moves and club/bat pauses due to lag.

[Scott Lee]

A much more accurate drill is shooting the CB from the footspot to see if your tip and shaft finish directly over the white dot in the middle of the black circle...or not.

Scott Lee
2019 PBIA Instructor of the Year
Director, SPF National Pool School Tour

Originally Posted by BilliardsAbout

A quick drill is to stance atop a rail and stroke over the diamonds to look for sideways deviation.

[Snooker Theory]

Originally Posted by FranCrimi

Well, it's important to me because I don't think that's correct. If the arm that's moving in a straight line is attached to the circular piece, then it's part of the circular piece and not moving back and forth in a straight line. If it's separate, then it has to pause, even if the pause is insignificant to you, technically, it's a pause and you shouldn't equate that with something like a loop stroke that doesn't pause at all because it's continuously moving in one direction. And BTW, I was the one who introduced the idea of a Filipino loop stroke here on AZ. I created that term. Up until then, you guys were all calling it a piston stroke.

That's interesting, thanks for sharing.

[paolo2144]

Originally Posted by FranCrimi

And if you study some of the Filipino players, you'll find that they don't pause at all because they have a loop stroke which is continuous.

Originally Posted by DrCue'sProtege

I'll say it again...……..Aint that the truth!

I've watched tons of pool over the years. ESPN, Accu-Stats videos, live and in person, etc, etc. About the only top level player that I have ever seen that has a big time pause is Buddy Hall. Back in his prime, of course.

r/DCP

While that may be true for a lot of 9 ball pool players if you look at some of the purist cueists in world who play snooker,Chinese 8 ball or UK pool with small tight pockets , vitually all the top players have a noticeable pause on their backswing.

They have to as the accuracy required to make any pot especially long balls and balls near cushions is so high, and the pasue definitely helps with this.

I note that in ladies pool three of the greatest players of all time(Allison Fisher, Karen Corr & Siming Chen)l have discernible pauses on there backswing, they are also some of the best positional players and controllers of the cueball ever in ladies pool.

[BilliardsAbout]

Originally Posted by Scott Lee

A much more accurate drill is shooting the CB from the footspot to see if your tip and shaft finish directly over the white dot in the middle of the black circle...or not.

Scott Lee
2019 PBIA Instructor of the Year
Director, SPF National Pool School Tour

Consider the accuracy is better, not worse, without impacting a ball--first, see where your cue is going--then, add in the variable of the ball--and many tables have worn foot spots/spot decals to boot.

[diazr3]

I think the most effective way to develop a 'stroke' sometimes happens to be right in front of us

First off, what is a 'developed' stroke? Is it spin? Straightness? Timing? Balance? I believe it happens to be a combination of all of the above.

Now, back to 'developing' a stroke

Set up the cb 6-8 inches off the rail between the corner and side pocket, shooting a straight in stun shot into the corner. Having an aramith 'pro cup' cb helps with this drill a lot.

Shoot a stun shot. What do you notice? Did the cb freeze when it hit the ob? Did it float a little to the right? To the left? What direction was the cue ball rotating?

All these are "stroke indicators" , the rotation of the cb being the most useful. Paying attention to that will tell you everything you need to know about where you're cuing on the cb. You must be sensitive to the tension in your arms and your muscles, your hips, your shoulders. You need to feel where things are "pulling". It will take time, you must allow your body to change, to move and to feel what's going on.

Now, can you freeze the cb 100/100 times? Let's say you freeze it 75/100. Sounds pretty good right? I think that's pretty impressive myself but when you think about it, 25% of the time, you're not cuing through the cb where you think you are. That means 1/4 balls youre shooting at, you're actually missing the point of contact which you're aiming at. How can you expect to hit 9 in a row consistently if you can't do 4?

Of course the opening of the pocket allows for a tolerance so you have room for error but getting closer to 100/100 is what you're trying to achieve.

What about balance and back stroke?

I feel that every shot the length of the back stroke changes according to what you're trying to do. Those 'air strokes' you do are to feel the weight of the cue pulling your wrist back at the end of your back stroke.

Look for that feeling when you are down on the shot, that will give you a great idea of the timing for the particular shot. Look for that weight.

[Tennesseejoe]

Originally Posted by FranCrimi

For me, the two most important things are moving your cue in a straight line and having good timing.

Straight line: Make sure your grip hand is in the same position on your cue in your follow through as when you were in starting position. If your knuckles changed position, then you probably twisted your cue.

Timing: This one is more difficult. Your forward motion should be a continually increasing speed up to the point of contact. The best way to assure this is by taking your cue back slowly and focusing on following through. Even though the follow through takes place after the fact, striving for your follow through while you're stroking will help to insure that you're not slowing down your stroke prior to impact.

Excellent information....

[Scott Lee]

diazr3...Some of your advice has merit...some doesn't. You need to get your language correct. A stop shot is what you're describing. A stun shot is a stop shot with an angle. In a stun shot the CB leaves on the tangent line, so a stop shot is not possible. I agree with you in that a stop shot should be an absolute...zero movement of the CB (and NO sidespin either). A measles CB is not important. You didn't describe how far apart the CB & OB are. You should start out close (1-2 diamonds apart). Nothing in what you posted indicated anything about how to develop an accurate and repeatable stroke, because it doesn't involve stop shots until you are taught how create your own perfect process. Without creating a repeatable process (one where the backswing and forward stroke is the same), speed control is difficult. What you described are not "stroke indicators", as much as stroke flaws. Knowing what flaws you have without knowing how to fix them is a bit like flying blind. Airstroking has nothing to do with anything other than a nervous habit that many players feel comfortable with. Trying to make a certain shot (any shot) 100x in a row is ridiculous. 10x in a row is plenty sufficient, and doesn't take nearly as long to accomplish. Practicing "shots" before developing a measurable, repeatable, accurate stroke process is putting the cart before the horse, and will make the learning process much longer and more difficult. We instructors here on the Ask an Instructor forum don't mind other people offering opinions, as long as accurate information is being presented.

Scott Lee
2019 PBIA Instructor of the Year
Director, SPF National Pool School Tour

Originally Posted by diazr3

I think the most effective way to develop a 'stroke' sometimes happens to be right in front of us

First off, what is a 'developed' stroke? Is it spin? Straightness? Timing? Balance? I believe it happens to be a combination of all of the above.

Now, back to 'developing' a stroke

Set up the cb 6-8 inches off the rail between the corner and side pocket, shooting a straight in stun shot into the corner. Having an aramith 'pro cup' cb helps with this drill a lot.

Shoot a stun shot. What do you notice? Did the cb freeze when it hit the ob? Did it float a little to the right? To the left? What direction was the cue ball rotating?

All these are "stroke indicators" , the rotation of the cb being the most useful. Paying attention to that will tell you everything you need to know about where you're cuing on the cb. You must be sensitive to the tension in your arms and your muscles, your hips, your shoulders. You need to feel where things are "pulling". It will take time, you must allow your body to change, to move and to feel what's going on.

Now, can you freeze the cb 100/100 times? Let's say you freeze it 75/100. Sounds pretty good right? I think that's pretty impressive myself but when you think about it, 25% of the time, you're not cuing through the cb where you think you are. That means 1/4 balls youre shooting at, you're actually missing the point of contact which you're aiming at. How can you expect to hit 9 in a row consistently if you can't do 4?

Of course the opening of the pocket allows for a tolerance so you have room for error but getting closer to 100/100 is what you're trying to achieve.

What about balance and back stroke?

I feel that every shot the length of the back stroke changes according to what you're trying to do. Those 'air strokes' you do are to feel the weight of the cue pulling your wrist back at the end of your back stroke.

Look for that feeling when you are down on the shot, that will give you a great idea of the timing for the particular shot. Look for that weight.

[FranCrimi]

Originally Posted by Scott Lee

diazr3...Some of your advice has merit...some doesn't. You need to get your language correct. A stop shot is what you're describing. A stun shot is a stop shot with an angle. In a stun shot the CB leaves on the tangent line, so a stop shot is not possible. I agree with you in that a stop shot should be an absolute...zero movement of the CB (and NO sidespin either). A measles CB is not important. You didn't describe how far apart the CB & OB are. You should start out close (1-2 diamonds apart). Nothing in what you posted indicated anything about how to develop an accurate and repeatable stroke, because it doesn't involve stop shots until you are taught how create your own perfect process. Without creating a repeatable process (one where the backswing and forward stroke is the same), speed control is difficult. What you described are not "stroke indicators", as much as stroke flaws. Knowing what flaws you have without knowing how to fix them is a bit like flying blind. Airstroking has nothing to do with anything other than a nervous habit that many players feel comfortable with. Trying to make a certain shot (any shot) 100x in a row is ridiculous. 10x in a row is plenty sufficient, and doesn't take nearly as long to accomplish. Practicing "shots" before developing a measurable, repeatable, accurate stroke process is putting the cart before the horse, and will make the learning process much longer and more difficult. We instructors here on the Ask an Instructor forum don't mind other people offering opinions, as long as accurate information is being presented.

Scott Lee
2019 PBIA Instructor of the Year
Director, SPF National Pool School Tour

It's always been my understanding that a stun shot occurs when the cue ball has no spin on it when it strikes the object ball, regardless of whether or not there's an angle, and that a stop shot is a stun shot where there is no angle.

[Patrick Johnson]

Originally Posted by FranCrimi

It's always been my understanding that a stun shot occurs when the cue ball has no spin on it when it strikes the object ball, regardless of whether or not there's an angle, and that a stop shot is a stun shot where there is no angle.

I think of it as a stun hit either way, and the cut angle or straightness determines the kind of shot it is (stun or stop).

pj
chgo

[One Pocket John]

Haven't been on here in a while, but this post caught my attention and I would like to comment on it.

Originally Posted by FranCrimi View Post
For me, the two most important things are moving your cue in a straight line and having good timing.

Straight line: Make sure your grip hand is in the same position on your cue in your follow through as when you were in starting position. If your knuckles changed position, then you probably twisted your cue.

Timing: This one is more difficult. Your forward motion should be a continually increasing speed up to the point of contact. The best way to assure this is by taking your cue back slowly and focusing on following through. Even though the follow through takes place after the fact, striving for your follow through while you're stroking will help to insure that you're not slowing down your stroke prior to impact.


This paragraph (in bold) is difficult to explain what is felt in the cue delivery to and thru the CB. For me I know instantly when I have HIT the CB rather than pushed the cue THRU the cue ball. To me it feels like the CB is stationary and I feel like I'm pushing the cue (making a hole) thru the CB. When your getting thru the CB you will feel it in your grip hand.

And old saying is "just try to get thru the cue ball on every shot"

Thanks Fran. Hope all is well up your way.

John

[FranCrimi]

Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson

I think of it as a stun hit either way, and the cut angle or straightness determines the kind of shot it is (stun or stop).

pj
chgo

Yeah, I think of a stop shot as a sub-category of stun. We should have another name for a stun shot where there's an angle ---- maybe a tangent line stun.

[Patrick Johnson]

Originally Posted by FranCrimi

We should have another name for a stun shot where there's an angle ---- maybe a tangent line stun.

That's pretty descriptive.

pj
chgo

[BilliardsAbout]

Originally Posted by diazr3

I think the most effective way to develop a 'stroke' sometimes happens to be right in front of us

First off, what is a 'developed' stroke? Is it spin? Straightness? Timing? Balance? I believe it happens to be a combination of all of the above.

Now, back to 'developing' a stroke

Set up the cb 6-8 inches off the rail between the corner and side pocket, shooting a straight in stun shot into the corner. Having an aramith 'pro cup' cb helps with this drill a lot.

Shoot a stun shot. What do you notice? Did the cb freeze when it hit the ob? Did it float a little to the right? To the left? What direction was the cue ball rotating?

All these are "stroke indicators" , the rotation of the cb being the most useful. Paying attention to that will tell you everything you need to know about where you're cuing on the cb. You must be sensitive to the tension in your arms and your muscles, your hips, your shoulders. You need to feel where things are "pulling". It will take time, you must allow your body to change, to move and to feel what's going on.

Now, can you freeze the cb 100/100 times? Let's say you freeze it 75/100. Sounds pretty good right? I think that's pretty impressive myself but when you think about it, 25% of the time, you're not cuing through the cb where you think you are. That means 1/4 balls youre shooting at, you're actually missing the point of contact which you're aiming at. How can you expect to hit 9 in a row consistently if you can't do 4?

Of course the opening of the pocket allows for a tolerance so you have room for error but getting closer to 100/100 is what you're trying to achieve.

What about balance and back stroke?

I feel that every shot the length of the back stroke changes according to what you're trying to do. Those 'air strokes' you do are to feel the weight of the cue pulling your wrist back at the end of your back stroke.

Look for that feeling when you are down on the shot, that will give you a great idea of the timing for the particular shot. Look for that weight.

Very interesting concept re: air strokes.

But consider you can also bridge in the air/port arms position so that they length of your bridge is pre-set before you bend to your stance/length of your backstroke is pre-set.

[AndRun]

The way I practice my stroke, besides drills and the likes that the greats have suggested in prior posts, is by developing muscle memory on the small muscle movements.

I'd roll up a piece of carton of size just a bit wider than the size of shaft at mid length. I'd then shoot through the hole lightly, then fast. This is to practice stroking straight. Then I'd take that to the table and mixing light hit off a nearby ball (like a defensive play) and fast hit on a long-straight shot.
Sometimes, I'd add variant by putting one ball on each side of the cue and make sure I dont hit them when stroking.
Breaking habits would be the hardest part. Like, when I tried to destroy the habit of snapping the stroke rather than guide it through all the way through.