[BC21]

Originally Posted by BC21

... I don't understand the point of arguing any of this stuff....

Originally Posted by Bob Jewett

Probably true.

What are the main points that a student or instructor should take away from books such as Colvin's? What is actually useful in them for people who want to play pool better?

Haha. Actually I think the point is the fact that some people are so used to doing things their own way that they argue against anything that doesn't fit in their own little box. Probably true.

The main thing that any student or instructor can get from such books is a better insight on how people can learn and develop skills more efficiently, a better understanding of effective practice sessions when it comes to learning without wasting a lot of time. And it's very beneficial to a student to understand that they can still become a great pool player or whatever even if they lack natural talent/ability or intelligence, and that it doesn't take 10 hours of practice or daily experience to accomplish it.

Believe it or not, learning how to learn is a very useful skill when it comes to bettering yourself.

[Bob Jewett]

Originally Posted by BC21

...
The main thing that any student or instructor can get from such books is a better insight on how people can learn and develop skills more efficiently, a better understanding of effective practice sessions when it comes to learning without wasting a lot of time. ...

Do you have any specific examples?

[BC21]

Originally Posted by Bob Jewett

Do you have any specific examples?

Absolutely...

The progressive drills (with a goal) that you and Dr Dave teach is good example of quality and efficient practice time.

Practicing beyond boredom is a good example of poor quality and inefficient practice time.

Most skills involve the development of a neural network/program along with the development of muscle memory/coordination. We create all the synaptic pathways needed to make it all happen. And some of these pathways don't rely on actual experience in order to be created.

When it comes to creating neural networks/programs, studies have shown that beginning students (let's say piano players) can create the neural networks needed for playing the piano without physically playing the piano. In other words, they can imagine the keyboard and finger movements and create the same piano playing program in their mind as students who physically sit down at the piano and practice. Of course, even though this method has been proven effective as far as creating the neural network, piano players must also develop muscle memory and finger dexterity. But learning where and how to move the fingers is something that can be learned entirely away from the piano.

For pool, this non-physical learning can be done by watching pool, by looking at images in books, by playing games like 8ball Pool on a PC or tablet or phone. All of this stuff helps the brain develop the neural network needed to play pool - to recognize cb-ob relationships, angles, etc... And it doesn't require actual table time/experience to develop this network. Of course the physical fundamentals of stroke and stance and alignment will require table time, but the neural part of learning to play pool doesn't.

[evergruven]

Originally Posted by BC21

Absolutely...

The progressive drills (with a goal) that you and Dr Dave teach is good example of quality and efficient practice time.

Practicing beyond boredom is a good example of poor quality and inefficient practice time.

Most skills involve the development of a neural network/program along with the development of muscle memory/coordination. We create all the synaptic pathways needed to make it all happen. And some of these pathways don't rely on actual experience in order to be created.

When it comes to creating neural networks/programs, studies have shown that beginning students (let's say piano players) can create the neural networks needed for playing the piano without physically playing the piano. In other words, they can imagine the keyboard and finger movements and create the same piano playing program in their mind as students who physically sit down at the piano and practice. Of course, even though this method has been proven effective as far as creating the neural network, piano players must also develop muscle memory and finger dexterity. But learning where and how to move the fingers is something that can be learned entirely away from the piano.

For pool, this non-physical learning can be done by watching pool, by looking at images in books, by playing games like 8ball Pool on a PC or tablet or phone. All of this stuff helps the brain develop the neural network needed to play pool - to recognize cb-ob relationships, angles, etc... And it doesn't require actual table time/experience to develop this network. Of course the physical fundamentals of stroke and stance and alignment will require table time, but the neural part of learning to play pool doesn't.

hey brian, just to butt in real quick
I'm glad you mentioned this
sure sure I'm not the only one
but I'm excited to get back to table
to play of course, and also just to see
how things look and how I respond
after been away for so long
still having cared about
and thought about, pool

[Scott Lee]

Sports psychologists agree that focused practice beyond about 20 minutes at the same activity, starts to see a decline in performance. This is why we structure our progressive skill set (Mother Drills) so that the student is focused solely on the task at hand...whatever part of the routine that is. Small bits...high focus...short repetition! Keys to a better process!

Scott Lee
2019 PBIA Instructor of the Year
Director, SPF National Pool School Tour

Originally Posted by BC21

Practicing beyond boredom is a good example of poor quality and inefficient practice time.

.

[KenRobbins]

Originally Posted by Scott Lee

Sports psychologists agree that focused practice beyond about 20 minutes at the same activity, starts to see a decline in performance. This is why we structure our progressive skill set (Mother Drills) so that the student is focused solely on the task at hand...whatever part of the routine that is. Small bits...high focus...short repetition! Keys to a better process!

Scott Lee
2019 PBIA Instructor of the Year
Director, SPF National Pool School Tour

Hi Scott, your a master instructor for a reason and I don't doubt you. But if a person can't focus more than 20 minutes on something they want to master, maybe that deep desire isn't there like they thought. I'd have to set a timer for 20 minutes to get me to stop. When I often look at the time I'm usually on the table a couple more hours than I thought.

[z0nt0n3r]

hi everyone , i have an update , about a month ago when i started this thread , i was placing the cue across the line on the majority of the shots so i had to steer the cue to make the shots .more precisely, the cue was aiming somewhere around the pocket jaw on many of my shots .

when i was down on the shot sometimes both my vision center and the cue were offline, other times the vision center was online but the cue was offline and other times the cue was online but the vision center was offline .so i had a big inconsistency in my set up.

2-3 weeks ago in practice i was focusing on aligning my head/dominant eye to the shot from the standing position and trying to keep it on the line until i was down on the shot and now i'm successfully keeping my vision center online when i'm getting down on the shot and the cue ends up on the correct part of my chin on most shots but the cue is still ending up across the line but at least now i think the cue is usually aiming closer the pocket area but not the intended part of the pocket which may cause the pocket to spit the ball out if the shot is struck hard and again this causes inconsistency.things have improved a bit because now i'm at least viewing the shot more accurately and i also now think the cue is usually aiming closer to the intended line of aim.

but still i think that 'bang online' accurate cue placement on most shots is mostly due to natural talent .

[KenRobbins]

Originally Posted by z0nt0n3r

hi everyone , i have an update , about a month ago when i started this thread , i was placing the cue across the line on the majority of the shots so i had to steer the cue to make the shots .more precisely, the cue was aiming somewhere around the pocket jaw on many of my shots .

when i was down on the shot sometimes both my vision center and the cue were offline, other times the vision center was online but the cue was offline and other times the cue was online but the vision center was offline .so i had a big inconsistency in my set up.

2-3 weeks ago in practice i was focusing on aligning my head/dominant eye to the shot from the standing position and trying to keep it on the line until i was down on the shot and now i'm successfully keeping my vision center online when i'm getting down on the shot and the cue ends up on the correct part of my chin on most shots but the cue is still ending up across the line but at least now i think the cue is usually aiming closer the pocket area but not the intended part of the pocket which may cause the pocket to spit the ball out if the shot is struck hard and again this causes inconsistency.things have improved a bit because now i'm at least viewing the shot more accurately and i also now think the cue is usually aiming closer to the intended line of aim.

but still i think that 'bang online' accurate cue placement is mostly due to natural talent .

Good to hear your figuring it out. You improved in just a couple weeks of work and on your own. Just keep working on it and give it a chance to become natural for you.

[KenRobbins]

Originally Posted by Scott Lee

Sports psychologists agree that focused practice beyond about 20 minutes at the same activity, starts to see a decline in performance.

I spent a couple hours researching this online and nothing really popped up with this. The closest I got was with this. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attention_span

The most thing that popped up with pro athlete practice sessions was long intense practice sessions. I figured I'd find something posted from a psychologist. lol https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/b...vates-athletes

If your training someone with a little interest and looking for something handed to them on a silver platter, I get the 20 minute practice times.

[KenRobbins]

I finally ran into an article that makes some sense. When I played little league baseball and played the all stars, some players spent most of their time sitting on the bench waiting to be needed. I was always the main pitcher. When they had us running, most of these guys struggled and couldn't keep up. That was with most of the activities that they participated in, including gym class in school.
http://www.sportpsychologytoday.com/...ring-practice/

This explains why my old buddy that taught would tell the majority of his students to get out and not come back. lol

[BilliardsAbout]

Originally Posted by KenRobbins

Hi Scott, your a master instructor for a reason and I don't doubt you. But if a person can't focus more than 20 minutes on something they want to master, maybe that deep desire isn't there like they thought. I'd have to set a timer for 20 minutes to get me to stop. When I often look at the time I'm usually on the table a couple more hours than I thought.

Most students (mental or physical activities) need study breaks. It's not "Scientists said don't play pool for more than 20 minutes" but "Scientists agree, take a five-minute break every 20 to 50 minutes or so to refresh, and to allow learning to seep in."

Most players have had a breakthrough up to 24 hours after a session. For example, the next day after an emotional match when you realize you hit the ball too hard or etc. to do your best.

If you benefit by what is known as "falling in", getting into a zone where you can play and learn for hours without a break, that's great--and one way to know what you're good at doing.

When I'm booked for an all-day lesson I institute regular rest breaks and also check in with the player to see if we're doing too many rest breaks, or too few.

[KenRobbins]

Originally Posted by BilliardsAbout

Most students (mental or physical activities) need study breaks. It's not "Scientists said don't play pool for more than 20 minutes" but "Scientists agree, take a five-minute break every 20 to 50 minutes or so to refresh, and to allow learning to seep in."

Most players have had a breakthrough up to 24 hours after a session. For example, the next day after an emotional match when you realize you hit the ball too hard or etc. to do your best.

If you benefit by what is known as "falling in", getting into a zone where you can play and learn for hours without a break, that's great--and one way to know what you're good at doing.

When I'm booked for an all-day lesson I institute regular rest breaks and also check in with the player to see if we're doing too many rest breaks, or too few.

I get that. If you don't have a partner to help set balls back up, you have to stop to set some balls back, that's a break. The average time for a drill is around 3 minutes and about the same or more to reset the balls back up. Same thing when when you rerack a set of balls. Your already getting breaks.

Researching some of these psychology articles is pretty cool and I'll try and read as much as I can in my downtime. No matter what I'm working on I don't stop until I'm finished or run out of daylight. Is that healthy, probably not, but when a job needs done I'm one of the first to get a call.

Edit: After a little research, I guess I'd be considered a workaholic. Time to train myself to sit back and have a relapse with a beer. Quit drinking in 2007. Guys at work will be pissed. The slackers will have to do their share of work now. lol

[BC21]

Originally Posted by KenRobbins

Hi Scott, your a master instructor for a reason and I don't doubt you. But if a person can't focus more than 20 minutes on something they want to master, maybe that deep desire isn't there like they thought. I'd have to set a timer for 20 minutes to get me to stop. When I often look at the time I'm usually on the table a couple more hours than I thought.

The thing is... it's a personal thing. Most people do better practicing in short intervals, taking breaks to digest information and feedback. It's a good way to study for college exams also, rather than trying to cram everything in over a 3 or 4 hour study session, break it up into 3 or 4 sessions over 2 or 3 days, 20min or so per session. It is very effective. But some people can remain focused for longer periods of time, and these types can put in 2 to 8 hours like it's nothing, and it works well for them.

[KenRobbins]

Originally Posted by BC21

The thing is... it's a personal thing. Most people do better practicing in short intervals, taking breaks to digest information and feedback. It's a good way to study for college exams also, rather than trying to cram everything in over a 3 or 4 hour study session, break it up into 3 or 4 sessions over 2 or 3 days, 20min or so per session. It is very effective. But some people can remain focused for longer periods of time, and these types can put in 2 to 8 hours like it's nothing, and it works well for them.

I'm finally starting to get it what a lot of you have been saying. I'm not a window licker, but I guess I'm a little slow. lol

If a coach had me practicing something and wanted me stop after 20 minutes, he'd have to tie me down to a chair. lol

I can't remember the age, but I'm guessing around 10 years old. Spent the weekend at my uncle's because he had a table. Eventually dad got me my own table. He set a cut shot up along the long rail shooting pass the side pocket and said try this shot here. He went to bed and woke up in the morning in shock I was still trying to make the same exact shot. If I remember correctly, I only made it a couple times in the several hours. lol

[BC21]

Originally Posted by KenRobbins

I'm finally starting to get it what a lot of you have been saying. I'm not a window licker, but I guess I'm a little slow. lol

If a coach had me practicing something and wanted me stop after 20 minutes, he'd have to tie me down to a chair. lol

I can't remember the age, but I'm guessing around 10 years old. Spent the weekend at my uncle's because he had a table. Eventually dad got me my own table. He set a cut shot up along the long rail shooting pass the side pocket and said try this shot here. He went to bed and woke up in the morning in shock I was still trying to make the same exact shot. If I remember correctly, I only made it a couple times in the several hours. lol

Lol. I understand. A good coach will gage your progress and focus during that 20 minutes. If the coach begins to notice that you're just going through the motions, monotonously, repeating the same errors with little attention to feedback or corrective instruction, then continuing the session is a waste of time. The coach should make you take a break. If you show no signs of boredom or loss of focus or whatever, then the coach is likely to keep you doing whatever you're doing.