You guys obviously don't know there is an AzB Hall of Fame fourm .
JP,
And you have obviously not read the entire thread (especially the post by cardiac kid about having requested the mods to put THIS thread in the Hall of Fame later on after people have seen and responded). By posting your own thread there, you will only cause confusion.
Here is a picture of Pat Howey at the 2007 DCC competing in the Straight Pool Challenge.
Blackjack,
Very cool photograph; because in his 75 ball run that I witnessed, the break shot you posted would have been about the average distance between his cue ball and object ball.
When I say "close position", I meant it. I doubt he had 5 shots of over 18 inches in separation. Hell, even I could run 75 if I was always that close to my work.
Other than Allen Hopkins and Danny D., I've really not witnessed that kind of old school, close position play. Players like Mosconi and Cranfield took great pride in their ability to get close to the object ball. Mosconi related a story about his first long exhibition tour with Greenleaf. Mosconi was just starting his career, and Greenleaf was in his prime. Mosconi observed Ralph closely, and noted that RG got much closer to the object balls. When Willie committed himself to getting such close position, his game blossomed, and Greenleaf could no longer beat him (according to Willie's account). Willie also recounted many times that he felt perhaps his greatest achievement was a run of 125 and out (games then to 125) where he was never more than 8 inches from any object ball after the opening break.
Last edited by Williebetmore; 04-25-2009 at 05:16 PM.
JP,
And you have obviously not read the entire thread (especially the post by cardiac kid about having requested the mods to put THIS thread in the Hall of Fame later on after people have seen and responded). By posting your own thread there, you will only cause confusion.
First of all, I was trying to be helpful, not snide. I apologize for sounding so insensitive with my wording. I didn't spot that when I wrote it, or I would have fixed it.
Secondly, I did not see the comment about asking the mods to move the thread. I have been very, very sick this week and also overloaded with work. When I saw someone had died, but I didn't know who him, I just tried to stay fairly aware of the thread and whether a thread was started in the Hall of Fame forum.
My sincere condolences to Pat's friends and family for their great loss.
Blackjack,
Very cool photograph; because in his 75 ball run that I witnessed, the break shot you posted would have been about the average distance between his cue ball and object ball.
When I say "close position", I meant it. I doubt he had 5 shots of over 18 inches in separation. Hell, even I could run 75 if I was always that close to my work.
Other than Allen Hopkins and Danny D., I've really not witnessed that kind of old school, close position play. Players like Mosconi and Cranfield took great pride in their ability to get close to the object ball. Mosconi related a story about his first long exhibition tour with Greenleaf. Mosconi was just starting his career, and Greenleaf was in his prime. Mosconi observed Ralph closely, and noted that RG got much closer to the object balls. When Willie committed himself to getting such close position, his game blossomed, and Greenleaf could no longer beat him (according to Willie's account). Willie also recounted many times that he felt perhaps his greatest achievement was a run of 125 and out (games then to 125) where he was never more than 8 inches from any object ball after the opening break.
LOL...
Ok Don, here is the story behind the picture.
In the video that I got this picture from, this was the starting break ball on his second attempt. So he actually set this shot up with ball in hand. As you mentioned earlier, he did lose a contact lens - so I'm not sure if he even made this shot, but I'll go back and look to make sure. Being bind and out of stroke (his description of his abilities in the Straight Pool Challenge) he told me he felt as if he was spraying balls all over the place. I did some commentary on his attempts last year. I might re-edit the footage and post them to AZBTV when I get a chance.
I still think he played great.
What made Pat's game so beautiful was the close position, that awesome slip stroke - and he always ran the most intelligent connect the dot patterns I have ever witnessed.
Pat and I talked about the close position one time and it came down to limiting cue ball movement. It was all about being clean and efficient with every move and every shot. Pat learned the game watching some of the greatest players ever, and he was a quick study. He had the awesome ability to obtain and apply all of that priceless knowledge.
He was such a great talent, and a kind, humble man. When I told him I was doing commentary on his high run attempts, he laughed and was actually puzzled as to why anybody would want to see him play 14.1 -
That was Pat Howey.
"Turkeys are hitting the ground like sacks of wet cement!" ~ Les Nessman
“Dead balls are harder to find than they are to make." ~ Cisero Murphy
"When all else fails, try not missing ... INTENTIONALLY." ~ Steve Mizerak
Other than Allen Hopkins and Danny D., I've really not witnessed that kind of old school, close position play. Players like Mosconi and Cranfield took great pride in their ability to get close to the object ball.
While there is much truth in what you say here, I'm going to have to defend the players of today.
Yes, the best of the old schoolers (at least the ones not named Lassiter) typically played tighter onto the breakshot than the players of today. To suggest that this is attributable to their taking more pride in their position play than the players of today is, to me, in error.
In the days of the slow, nappy cloth, straight pool was a slightly different game. The cue ball had to be hit harder on the break shots and the balls still didn't spread as well. Knowing they'd have to hit the object ball harder on the break shots, players felt more pressure to get tight on the break shots. Playing on Simonis 860 cloth, the players of today do not have as much need to get really tight shape on the break shots, and, in some cases, the pattern play of today's elite straight poolers, quite understandably, reflects a focus on getting the correct angle on the break shot over getting really tight shape on it.
In truth, the old schoolers were playing the percentages as they pertained to the old, nappy cloth and the current generation of straight poolers are playing the percentages as they apply to playing the game on Simonis 860.
While there is much truth in what you say here, I'm going to have to defend the players of today.
Yes, the best of the old schoolers (at least the ones not named Lassiter) typically played tighter onto the breakshot than the players of today. To suggest that this is attributable to their taking more pride in their position play than the players of today is, to me, in error.
In the days of the slow, nappy cloth, straight pool was a slightly different game. The cue ball had to be hit harder on the break shots and the balls still didn't spread as well. Knowing they'd have to hit the object ball harder on the break shots, players felt more pressure to get tight on the break shots. Playing on Simonis 860 cloth, the players of today do not have as much need to get really tight shape on the break shots, and, in some cases, the pattern play of today's elite straight poolers, quite understandably, reflects a focus on getting the correct angle on the break shot over getting really tight shape on it.
In truth, the old schoolers were playing the percentages as they pertained to the old, nappy cloth and the current generation of straight poolers are playing the percentages as they apply to playing the game on Simonis 860.
sjm,
I agree on all points. I was not just discussing the break shot however; Pat played such close position on almost every shot in every rack (something Danny D. told me I would have to work towards or risk forever being a hack); it was truly freaky how close he was getting to his object balls (something I have not observed from any of the young guns - but of course my viewing has been only occasional - I've been pretty impressed with John Schmidt on occasion and Steve Lipsky as well....sjm didn't do too badly in this regard either in Betmore's Basement). I haven't really paid special attention to this aspect of any games I have viewed in the past; but was just forced to notice it by the dramatic nature of Pat's play (and had never really noticed such a thing in the past).
I'm going to assume that such close positioning is obtained by a lifetime of looking for patterns that achieve such position (rather than some superhuman ability to position the rock); and is perhaps something that even the amateur can aspire towards......I hope.....
Last edited by Williebetmore; 04-26-2009 at 04:43 AM.
sjm,
I agree on all points. I was not just discussing the break shot however; Pat played such close position on almost every shot in every rack (something Danny D. told me I would have to work towards or risk forever being a hack); it was truly freaky how close he was getting to his object balls (something I have not observed from any of the young guns - but of course my viewing has been only occasional - I've been pretty impressed with John Schmidt on occasion and Steve Lipsky as well....sjm didn't do too badly in this regard either in Betmore's Basement). I haven't really paid special attention to this aspect of any games I have viewed in the past; but was just forced to notice it by the dramatic nature of Pat's play (and had never really noticed such a thing in the past).
I'm going to assume that such close positioning is obtained by a lifetime of looking for patterns that achieve such position (rather than some superhuman ability to position the rock); and is perhaps something that even the amateur can aspire towards......I hope.....
A very good post, Willie, but I'll add one observation to my previous post. Even mid-rack, tighter shape mattered more, at least in part, because it was alittle tougher to move the cue ball aorund, particuarly off an insufficient angle. Here's a good example of a shot that played differently on the old, nappy cloth.
You're a bit straighter on the key ball than you had hoped for, and the position calls for a firm, stun storke to get ideal shape on to the break ball. On the old cloth, you had to hit this shot much harder to make that shape than you do on today's cloth. Just one example of why making the corrections when a pattern goes slightly awry is easier today, and one more reason that the old timers were forced to play slightly tighter shape.
Just a short story. Years ago I was asked to referee the final match at the Cleveland Open. Nick Varner took a couple of intentional scratches. Johnny Archer ran the 150 and out continuing on to 202. Only on two or three occassions could I detect a pattern for the runout. Johnny played nine ball for a 202 ball run!
That I believe is the difference between today's top 14.1 players and the old legends. Modern players feel they can make any shot. Why play pin point position? With the Simonis 760 & 860 cloths, Aramith Pro balls and 4.5 x 9 tables, high runs will happen. The game is too easy now. It has become a question of concentration and the ability to maintain it! Just my two cents.
Any AZ Billiards forum members located near Rochester, NY. Friday evening May 1st at 7:00 PM some friends of Pat Howey are going to gather at Classic Billiards. It is our intention to raise a glass (preferably Genny Light) in honor of our friend. Stories, photos, memories, etc.
Classic is located at 3400 West Ridge Road at the corner of North Ave. Any questions? Call Classic at 585 227 7400 or PM me. Thanks again to all the posters who helped keep Pat's memory alive.
Just a short story. Years ago I was asked to referee the final match at the Cleveland Open. Nick Varner took a couple of intentional scratches. Johnny Archer ran the 150 and out continuing on to 202. Only on two or three occassions could I detect a pattern for the runout. Johnny played nine ball for a 202 ball run!
That I believe is the difference between today's top 14.1 players and the old legends. Modern players feel they can make any shot. Why play pin point position? With the Simonis 760 & 860 cloths, Aramith Pro balls and 4.5 x 9 tables, high runs will happen. The game is too easy now. It has become a question of concentration and the ability to maintain it! Just my two cents.
Lyn
i think your wrong.
the pockets before were like large mouth bass.
the thick cloth makes the pockets play even bigger.
"Sunday i aint bumpin rap, im bumpin Al Green. Monday i aint selling white, im selling all Green. " ~ Yo Gotti
"I'm on that grey goose, do I know you? " ~ Yo Gotti
"That was a free tip for your non-educated pool ass."~ "Carlot" Donny Mills
"How you gonna mess with a grizzly when you're a pooh bear?"~ Unknown rapper
i think your wrong.
the pockets before were like large mouth bass.
the thick cloth makes the pockets play even bigger.
As one who has attended countless world 14.1 championship events, I can vouch for this. In world championship play, the pockets were looser twenty years ago than they are now, though I don't agree they were very loose.
Also, I might be wrong about this, but I thought having thicker cloth on the rails causes shots played along the rails to play tougher.
i think your wrong.
the pockets before were like large mouth bass.
the thick cloth makes the pockets play even bigger.
Chris,
My main point is the difference in styles between those players we consider "legends" and the current group of top players. The equipment has changed the game. For both better and worse. Just as the primary game played as I grew up was 14.1, you great young guns grew up on 9 ball. It shows in how you play 14.1 and I play 9 ball.
Incidentally, I met you at Derby City a few years ago. Kid Delicious intrduced me to you. Your comment was "oh, from Grau country". A meaningless piece of trivia!
My name is Amy Howey. I am Pat's daughter. I want to thank all of you for remembering my dad. He was so special in so many ways. It was always exciting to watch him play pool at Classic Billiards in Rochester when I was a little girl and to see him play straight pool was quite amazing. He used to run 100+ balls all the time. He was so well known by so many, not just for playing pool, but for being such a good fisherman and singer and just for being an all around nice guy. He was a great father and friend to me and loved his grandkids also. He lived life to the fullest. He thoroughly enjoyed his first few years here in Florida, getting acquainted with the pool players in this area, Ray Martin, CM Lee, and so many others and one-pocket became the game he played the most after moving here. He became a pretty good one-pocket player. He also loved to go fishing for shark and tarpin. We had so many good times together. He began to have stomach trouble and was diagnosed with ulcers yet the pain wasn't going away even with treatment and then he started getting jaundiced which is when we found out about the cancer. We were told he only had 6 months to a year to live. My dad and I didn't accept that and he fought hard, so hard. He lived 30 months from the time of diagnosis and up until about 3 months ago would play pool sometimes 4-6 hrs a day. He was an incredible, wonderful, gentle, genuine good person who I will miss so very much. I am so glad I moved here to Florida just because I was able to spend so much time with my dad. I loved him so much! Thanks to all of you for remembering him. There will be a get together in rememberance of him at CM's Place Billiards in Seminole, Florida on Sunday, May 3. He told me that he wanted people to remember the good times with him and eat shrimp and a few drinks and share stories. Remember him always. It will keep him close. Amy
Amy's post is the icing on the cake. Lyn, just as you intended, this thread has been a fitting tribute to a man who distinguished himself over the green felt and also in life.
My main point is the difference in styles between those players we consider "legends" and the current group of top players. The equipment has changed the game. For both better and worse. Just as the primary game played as I grew up was 14.1, you great young guns grew up on 9 ball. It shows in how you play 14.1 and I play 9 ball.
Incidentally, I met you at Derby City a few years ago. Kid Delicious intrduced me to you. Your comment was "oh, from Grau country". A meaningless piece of trivia!
Lyn
my comment was from grau country ?
the players of today dont play 14 1 like before because no one plays it.
"Sunday i aint bumpin rap, im bumpin Al Green. Monday i aint selling white, im selling all Green. " ~ Yo Gotti
"I'm on that grey goose, do I know you? " ~ Yo Gotti
"That was a free tip for your non-educated pool ass."~ "Carlot" Donny Mills
"How you gonna mess with a grizzly when you're a pooh bear?"~ Unknown rapper
