[gromulan]

Originally Posted by DangerousDave

I'm not too familiar with one pocket (I've seen a little but not really enough to comment here) but I'll go ahead and disagree with you on snooker and nine-ball.

I don't see how you could think safety in snooker is 'nowhere near as intricate' as in nine-ball - snooker is generally a more complex game all around and this would include safety in my opinion.

It might look at the start of the frame like they're just lagging the cue ball to the end rail each time, but this really isn't the case. They're often blocking off avenues back to the baulk end when they leave their opponent a clear shot at a red, placing the cue ball in a specific area to achieve this. You'll see any number of complicated escapes from snookers if you watch for long enough, from straightforward rolls into the pack to glancing escapes off two cushions, bringing the white back to baulk, or coming off three or four cushions to nestle up to a ball and leave no shot.

The score becomes another factor in how many shots are played. With a large lead and a bunch of reds on the cushion, the leading player will try to tie up balls and put colours out of commission, while the trailing player aims to open everything up without giving up a shot. Players simultaneously playing the same set of balls with different goals results in greater tactical depth, and this can also be said for one-pocket.

In nine-ball you're more likely to see the incoming player snookered after a safe but it's the nature of the game that this is easier to accomplish, with distance being less of a factor than in snooker and with both players always shooting at the same ball.

When all the reds are on the table a player has more options to choose from, which (like straight pool) does not mean you can expect to just shoot any ball and be successful. If a frame reaches the point where only the colours are left and the frame is still 'alive', you'll have a situation like in nine-ball where there is only one ball to be played, but it's usually the case that one player will need more of the remaining balls than the other, again adding another element to the shot selection of both players. Exchanges in nine-ball are generally very short; safety definitely plays a bigger part in snooker.

Then there are 'shots-to-nothing' where a player can go for a ball, leaving himself a shot if it goes in and leaving his opponent nothing if he misses. These can be very creative, and are just another example of shots that do not feature quite so much in a rotation game like nine-ball.

With more balls on the table to choose from and a points system to consider, tactical play in snooker will always be more complex than in nine-ball...and just sending the cue ball anywhere down the other end of the table simply won't cut it.

I'm sorry but you're just wrong about this. You also seem to be assuming I'm a person who bases what I say on just watching a little snooker - I'm not. I run consistent centuries and my highest break is 147. I've also played pro nine ball and I can tell you that in terms of 'general billiard knowledge' pool players have way more of it than snooker players. They move the cue ball better and have a much wider array of shots.

If you watch good players trying to play each others' games you can see this quite well. Snooker players rarely have any problem with the potting when they try and play pool, but when it comes to safety they really, really struggle. However, the reverse is the case when pool players play snooker - they really have no problem with the 'moving' but just get out potted more often than not.

Now you can believe me or not but I'm telling you - if you want to improve your knowledge of the game and your safety as a snooker player - play some pool!

[DKhan]

Personally, I've found snooker to be far more challenging than 8/9/10 ball from any angle including safety techniques. However, the only most simplistic safe play in snooker is to simply touch the OB to create a snooker without having any balls to touch rails.

[Wity]

Originally Posted by gromulan

....... when pool players play snooker - they really have no problem with the 'moving' but just get out potted more often than not.

because it takes far more skill to play at the top level of snooker than at the top level of pool. Thats obvious to a blind man, just tell him the size of the table and the pockets.

Now you can believe me or not but I'm telling you - if you want to improve your knowledge of the game and your safety as a snooker player - play some pool!

How many l's in bollocks?

[Philthepockets]

Originally Posted by gromulan

However, the reverse is the case when pool players play snooker - they really have no problem with the 'moving' but just get out potted more often than not.

Sorry but if you think "moving" for pool players at snooker is no problem then you need to get out more as maybe top level safety is not an area you fully understand. "Moving" is not just about 2 cushions return to balk, there are as many facets as pool.
I have yet to see a pool player that can accurately hit thin balls with varying degrees of english over that distance. Playing 3-4 cushions onto balls at the top end from balk and getting safe is no mean feat, neither are two cushion glances and returning to balk. No the safety game is equally as difficult just different.

[predator]

Originally Posted by gromulan

I'm sorry but you're just wrong about this. You also seem to be assuming I'm a person who bases what I say on just watching a little snooker - I'm not. I run consistent centuries and my highest break is 147.

Then you must be a snooker player? Who did you beat? I ask because pool players do not run consistent centuries at snooker...unless we have a different understanding of the word 'consistent'.

A few months ago I had a small chat with Tony Drago at Duffel, Belgium where European snooker championships were held this year. I specifically asked him whether any pool players play decent snooker. He flat out said 'No'. He gives around 60 point handicap if they want to play. Corey Deuel tried and let's just say he didn't have a chance...
But I was persistant and wanted to hear from Tony what he thought of Corey's snooker game, did he show any promise, etc... He said 'he can make a 20 break'. Go figure.

[Brozif]

A lot of good answers here. I agree with most of them.

Having lived in England for 8 years, I got the chance to go to many of the professional snooker events and watch players like O'Sullivan, Hendry, Higgins, Davis, White and many more. I dabled playing snooker a while with a high run of 72, but in no way does that even make me good at the game. I mainly play pool and have a deep love for all games billiard related. I can watch and love to play all of them.

That being said, each game has their own special characteristic that makes them tough. In snooker, the basic size of the table, and the round pockets makes playing difficult. I played snooker on a table that was 6' x 12'. The safety part of the game is one of the main differences in the game. On a snooker table all you had to do is leave somebody at the other end of the table and that was normally enough. The pro's are good enough that they can also put you behind one of the colors on the "D", but if that's not successful, the length alone acts as a safety. That's not always possible in pool. In pool you have to lock somebody down in order to draw a foul.

The MAIN reason the safety play is different is because in pool after you make contact with the object ball, something has to be driven to a rail or pocketed. You have to worry about the cue-ball and the position of the object ball. In snooker you can roll up to a ball or to the pack. Nothing has to be driven to a rail, so you normally only have to worry about the position of the cue-ball. If there are reds on the table, but you fall out of position on a color ball, you can simply roll up to the color and leave the cue-ball behind it, leaving the color ball between the cue-ball and the reds.

Having to drive balls to a rail when playing safeties or kicking out of safeties is a BIG part of what makes safeties a little tougher playing pool over playing snooker.

I will say that you will not find better potters of the ball than snooker players, where the snooker players fall short on are safety play and breaking. It only takes a little time for the good snooker players to learn those particular skills. Good snooker players can adapt to playing pool a lot easier than pool players could adapt to playing snooker.

JMHO

[DKhan]

Originally Posted by Brozif

The MAIN reason the safety play is different is because in pool after you make contact with the object ball, something has to be driven to a rail or pocketed. You have to worry about the cue-ball and the position of the object ball.

Having to drive balls to a rail when playing safeties or kicking out of safeties is a BIG part of what makes safeties a little tougher playing pool over playing snooker.

True, but make no mistake that that same "hooking" technique applies to snooker as well along with other safeties that aren't benefited in pool and in fact gives edge to snooker over pool in difficulty level due to sheer size differences in equipment. 8/9/10 pool games are a lot easier and can be over in seconds without having to actually play out the table, LOL.

Good snooker players can adapt to playing pool a lot easier than pool players could adapt to playing snooker.

True and that what makes snooker a whole lota sophisticated over pool games.

Btw, are those gorgeous Asians relatives of your? Just curious!

[Brozif]

Originally Posted by DKhan

True and that what makes snooker a whole lota sophisticated over pool games.

Btw, are those gorgeous Asians relatives of your? Just curious!

Snooker is definitely full of players that are more "POSH" than pool players. LOL

Those gorgeous Asians, are actually one gorgeous, incredibly sweet, and incredible Korean pool player named Yu Ram Cha. She doesn't know it yet, but she is my future ex-wife!!

[DKhan]

Originally Posted by Brozif

Snooker is definitely full of players that are more "POSH" than pool players. LOL

Yep, that too.

Those gorgeous Asians, are actually one gorgeous, incredibly sweet, and incredible Korean pool player named Yu Ram Cha. She doesn't know it yet, but she is my future ex-wife!!

Sure look spicy and delicious. Had similar one 'eons ago' and looking at those pics and in reality simply arouses my curiosity and good 'ol memories.

[Philthepockets]

quote "On a snooker table all you had to do is leave somebody at the other end of the table and that was normally enough."

As I stated earlier this is not top level safety. If you let a pro get his hand on the table his potting percentage is very high and he will knock these in and also will have a consistently high level of scoring.
Making the occasional 70 or 80 for a pool player is not what it takes to win at snooker, creating opportunities and being able to most often take advantage thats the key, heck there are thousands of club level players in the UK that make centuries and play balk area safeties but they are not able to capitalize in all situations consistently and tyhey don't play jam up safety.

[gromulan]

Originally Posted by predator

Then you must be a snooker player? Who did you beat? I ask because pool players do not run consistent centuries at snooker...unless we have a different understanding of the word 'consistent'.

A few months ago I had a small chat with Tony Drago at Duffel, Belgium where European snooker championships were held this year. I specifically asked him whether any pool players play decent snooker. He flat out said 'No'. He gives around 60 point handicap if they want to play. Corey Deuel tried and let's just say he didn't have a chance...
But I was persistant and wanted to hear from Tony what he thought of Corey's snooker game, did he show any promise, etc... He said 'he can make a 20 break'. Go figure.

Ha ha. I think I'd Tony has a better chance of catching malaria than he does of beating someone like Efren or Alex P giving them 60 point spots. Efren ran back-to-back 130s on a tight 12' snooker table in Detroit back in the mid 90s. Several people saw this. Parica said flat out he would play Thorburn snooker EVEN in LA and bet as much as $100K. Kirk Stevens played snooker against Efren once for something like $1000 a game and quit after three games. Now I'm not saying those guys could compete against the top players in the game, but they can certainly are not to be taken lightly - make no mistake.

Tony Drago meanwhile is a guy who crossed over into pool and had some success, and makes it LOOK like snooker is a far harder pursuit but seriously, how do you really think he would fare in a race to 100 10-ball against someone like Dennis Orcollo, SVB, or Alex P? Forgetaboutit.

As for my definition of consistent - come play me some and find out.

[gromulan]

Originally Posted by Philthepockets

quote "On a snooker table all you had to do is leave somebody at the other end of the table and that was normally enough."

As I stated earlier this is not top level safety. If you let a pro get his hand on the table his potting percentage is very high and he will knock these in and also will have a consistently high level of scoring.
Making the occasional 70 or 80 for a pool player is not what it takes to win at snooker, creating opportunities and being able to most often take advantage thats the key, heck there are thousands of club level players in the UK that make centuries and play balk area safeties but they are not able to capitalize in all situations consistently and tyhey don't play jam up safety.

You're right in that distance is only part of the equation, but where you're wrong is in the fact that many of the safeties in snooker bear a very familiar pattern. I mean yes there's a lot of skill required in playing a thin safety of the stack, avoiding some loose reds, and then missing the blue and balk colors to leave the guy in a tricky position. No question. But there's also no question that at snooker you have a lot of places to hide. Distance is one thing, sure, but those color balls cover a lot of real estate when it comes to defense.

But you guys get hung up on thinking pool is just 8,9 or 10 ball. Compare snooker to straight pool, where you still have to defend an entire stack of 15 balls but DISTANCE DOESN'T SAVE you and THERE'RE NO BALK COLORS to hide behind. Basically if you play safe at that game you can't leave the guy (and that's any guy, not just the top 10) any kind of a shot or they'll make it and run a million balls. You've got to be pretty creative to find places on the table where you basically leave the guy nothing. No shots, no combos, no banks, no billiards (or canons), no dead ones in the stack - nothing.

Put up a rack of 15 reds sometime and try that - to play safe and leave no shots whatsoever. I bet you can't hit three in a row. (Bear in mind that the opening shot requires that TWO object balls and the cueball hit rails, so don't just roll into the stack and say you win). Hell, I'll let you pick a random name from the top 20 and bet they can't do it.

Here's another exercise. In America a popular game is bank pool. In that game the only way you can score is by making a bank (what y'all call a 'double'). So next time you're at a table, grab a cueball and an object ball and just throw them around the table. Now wait for the balls to stop moving and then try and play safe - WITHOUT LEAVING A BANK. And I'm not talking about a hard bank shot, I'm talking about ANY bank*. Remember that all shots at bank pool require that at least one of the balls hits at least one cushion or it's a foul. Good luck.

Post the results of your efforts here. I think you'll find it interesting and you may even learn something. Perish the thought.




* Any reasonable bank anyways. But bear in mind, that does include one-rail, two-rail, three-rail, four-rail, and even five-rail banks. The good players in the US will make just about any shot you leave too, so be careful.

[Philthepockets]

Originally Posted by gromulan

Ha ha. Efren ran back-to-back 130s on a tight 12' snooker table in Detroit back in the mid 90s.

Boy am I tired of hearing this myth from Efren fanboys, the story changes each time too the man does not walk on water and there is no proof he can do anything on a snooker table.

[Philthepockets]

Parica playing Cliff at snooker ?? was this recently, since Cliff is well past it and rarely plays it's understandable but if it was back in the 80s when Cliff was World champ then I am sure he would have bitten his arm off.
Pool players make me laugh sometimes

[DangerousDave]

Originally Posted by gromulan

But you guys get hung up on thinking pool is just 8,9 or 10 ball.

You say this, but my disagreement with you and this dicussion started with you saying that safety was "nowhere near as intricate" in snooker as in games like nine-ball or one pocket. I singled out nine-ball and made a case for snooker that you failed to address, instead stating your opinion as fact and claiming to be an authority because you've made century breaks. If John Schmidt told me nine-ball was the greatest test of skill of all the games, I wouldn't be forced to take his word for it however well he plays.

The only arguments you've really offered so far are for straight pool and banks, neither of which you mentioned in your opening post.

Originally Posted by gromulan

Post the results of your efforts here. I think you'll find it interesting and you may even learn something. Perish the thought.

Again, you're coming across as a bit of an ass here, but at least you made a case for pool this time, even if it wasn't for the games you first mentioned.

About pool players 'moving' the ball no problem in snooker; I still don't agree.

Probably the only video available online of a pool player playing on a snooker table is of Jeremy Jones, and his movement isn't so hot in this game. I've seen Mizerak play snooker as well, and he didn't exactly have the cue ball on a string. The same can be said for snooker players playing pool, and I think that the differences in equipment alone account for most of this - certainly more so than the relative skill sets of the players. The differences in the size of the balls, the cloth and the cushion rails are enough to affect a player's touch when switching between games.